Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

About the 'new' Frankenguns policy in MGS

(moved from Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes)

This thing has been festering longer than people think. I just discovered that the Konami's Frankengunning of MGS has been in effect since 2012, beginning with Metal Gear Solid - Social Ops, a 3D mobile game that released exclusively in Japan for the iPhone and Android smartphones.

From MGS wiki as of November 5 2014:

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid:_Social_Ops#Behind_the_scenes

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_V_weapons_and_equipment#Behind_the_scenes

"MGS SOP" involves gameplay/re-enactment from the games Metal Gear Solid 3 - Snake Eater and Metal Gear Solid - Peace Walker. Social Ops was similar to the Metal Gear Acid series in terms of character movement and its use of items and weapons via trading cards.

For cards with rendered art (art not pulled straight from a game) - with few exceptions - the weapons are replaced with a counter-part from MGSV. For example, Old Snake from Metal Gear Solid 4 is seen holding a SVG-76 instead of a AK-102 or a AM-69 instead of a M4 Custom, and Peace Walker-era Snake is seen holding a AM-69 rather than a M16A1.

Also several newer promotional renders, along with several older ones (i.e. promotional images of Peace Walker) of previous games have had their previously real life weapons replaced with a Metal Gear Solid V equivalent. For example - as stated previously; Big Boss with M16A1 from Peace Walker and Old Snake with M4 custom from MGS4 are now both shown holding AM Rifle Type 69 instead. This is also seen on promotional images with The Legacy Collection that was released in Summer of 2013 worldwide. For example; In new HD render art of Solid Snake is seen with a Wu Silent Pistol in his holster instead of a Mk23 SOCOM.

The reasons for the changes are yet to be stated. It's claimed that Konami had gotten in legal problems with gun licencing for exploiting loopholes via Airsoft company Tokyo Marui partnership. Therefore they cannot use designs patented by major weapons manufacturers and can only use non-conflicting designs provided by Tokyo Marui. TrickShotFinn (talk) 12:49, 5 November 2014 (EST)

As I said before, call bullshit that Konami couldn't get image rights to use real life guns or that the AK variant is copyrighted. Is Russia knocking on Konami's doors about the image? Excalibur01 (talk) 23:01, 5 November 2014 (EST)

This is all getting pretty strange. How do you use an "airsoft loophole"? Claim that your ingame guns are just modelled after airsoft guns? Besides, wasn't there a court case that decided that "M4" is now a generic term (like "M1911") that can't be copyrighted/trademarked? Why can't Old Snake keep his, then? Did Konami face a major lawsuit? Or were licensing fees getting too expensive after Peace Walker? Or is Konami overreacting in some way? --Mazryonh (talk) 21:51, 8 November 2014 (EST)

Combination of gross overreaction and licensing expenses IMO. Though, it’s more likely that it’s MGS4’s – and not PW’s - gun licensing that came around to bite Konami in the ass.

If you ask me, the whole thing could very well be connected to something in Japanese law that we might not know about.

And yes, the “airsoft loophole” is "allegedly" a thing in Japan. It works by having some Airsoft manufacturer in sponsor-/partnership with the work in question, and if somebody starts blowing whistles they just can defend themselves by saying that they are promoting (Airsoft Manufacturer’s) product(s) and not actual firearm company's. (Ridiculous, I know.)

One of the most well-known exploiters of this has been Capcom’s Resident Evil/Bio Hazard. RE and Tokyo Marui have been connected since RE2, with partnership beginning since Capcom commissioned Tokyo Marui to release an Airsoft replicas of the in-game variations of the Desert Eagle wielded by Leon S. Kennedy. Resident Evil 5 is good a good example of “the loophole” in full force. If you take a good look of the RE5 arsenal and are aware what’s in Tokyo Marui’s catalog around 2009, you’ll notice that all the non-franken-/heavily edited guns have Tokyo Marui counterparts – with some exceptions. Same deal with RE Relevations 1, notably featuring the Smith & Wesson 3566 under the guise of Tokyo Marui’s “PC356” replica of the aforementioned pistol. Although judging from RE6, the “all frankenguns policy” has affected RE as well. TrickShotFinn (talk) 13:40, 11 November 2014 (EST)

Then what about the gun designs that can't be copyrighted/trademarked, like the M4, the M1911, or AK-style rifles? It does speak of "overreaction" as well. And what's keeping Konami from paying the licensing fees again? I don't think they're in financial trouble like Capcom and Sega currently are.--Mazryonh (talk) 01:45, 27 November 2014 (EST)

Unknown SMG

Anybody know what these are?

Mr.Ice (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

Considering all footage shown so far, showing relatively narrow arsenal assets, I'm willing to say pretty surely that it's the same MP9 as in Ground Zeroes. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 17:24, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

But whats the point of holding them sideways like that especially with the ejection port facing up.--Mr.Ice (talk) 17:40, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

I assume however, it could be held sideways because they are so densely packed together, using it as a method of evading to shower their mates with hot brass. I'm puzzled as to why they are holding them ejection port upwards, but it could be some recoil controlling technique perhaps even a depiction of the C.A.R. technique. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 18:03, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

You are thinking about it too much, I would highly doubt that anyone involved in this decision has even heard of the CAR technique. My guess is that they are doing it because someone thinks it looks cool, particularly if you get to have the cases spraying upwards into the air showing off some nice physics. --commando552 (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

I don't know about the guns, but the stuff on the soldiers backs seem to resemble the fuel canisters for the M2 Flamethrower or a similar flamethrower. What I do know is that whatever the make, the backpack is undeniably a flamethrower weapon. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:50, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

I don't think they are, more likely they are air tanks as they appear to be wearing breathing apparatus. --commando552 (talk) 06:39, 29 March 2013 (EDT)

Found another gun image, it's from the last few seconds of the VGA trailer:

Don't know if its the same gun or a different gun, but still, hope I helped. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:57, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

The The Phantom Pain and Ground Zero is the same game. They've just announced that. So one of these pages has got to go Excalibur01 (talk) 19:47, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

The last I read (earlier today) "Ground Zeroes" is the prologue to "The Phantom Pain" which taken together make up MGS5, but they would not confirm whether or not they were shipping it as one game or two separate ones. --commando552 (talk) 19:59, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

Well, I advocated patience and just waiting for official word earlier, I don't know why people are in such a rush. --Funkychinaman (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, here's a bit of a problem, though: Konami told GameSpot that they are two separate games. Jay Boor, director of PR, stated they are two separate games, and the official MGS facebook page (which is owned by Konami and Kojima Productions) not only stated they were two different games, they even quoted Kojima's twitter on it. We keep them separate. Pokeria1 (talk) 20:46, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

If they truly are separate games, then why does the new trailer contain footage from BOTH teasers and titled it MGS5 The Phantom Pain? Excalibur01 (talk) 21:57, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

If I recall correctly, Peace Walker and Portable Ops also contained footage from Metal Gear Solid 3 in their debut trailers, so I doubt it would mean much. Even if it did, it's likely that they are somewhat connected, but still separate games. Pokeria1 (talk) 21:59, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

I don't ever remember they using footage from MGS3 to advertise that the final product will look like Portable Ops or Peacewalker. The recent trailer did not even state they were two separate games. It didn't say Ground Zeroes once, it only titled itself as MGS5 The Phantom Pain. Excalibur01 (talk) 22:58, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

Portable Ops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0NUg0DLMpQ

Peace Walker TGS2009 Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b5trPeM9wI

Both of these trailers showed footage from MGS3, at least at the beginning of the trailer. And the trailer may not have stated they were two separate games, but Konami and other official sources stated they are. Heck, even Kojima stated that the sequence he showed in TPP was actually the tutorial at the beginning of a game, despite claiming that Ground Zeroes was the prologue. The only way to claim both to be true is if they are indeed separate games. And besides, Kojima also stated that both Rising and Peace Walker were Metal Gear Solid 5 in interviews, even though back then it was clear as day they were separate games. Pokeria1 (talk) 23:16, 28 March 2013 (EDT)

I am still holding out that it's all misdirection on part of the creator. It seems odd to market 2 games at the same time. Are both going to be released at the same time? in one box? a year apart? There's a lot of questions from a production standpoint Excalibur01 (talk) 00:22, 29 March 2013 (EDT)

And going back to the portable games trailers with MGS3 footage. Those were the Japanese trailers and the MGS3 footages serve as a jump off point. If you were to compare advertising like that to these games, it would be like watching a trailer of MGS5 starting off with a couple scenes from MGS4, 2 completely different games but obviously has connections to each other since they exist in the same universe. You can't argue because the portable games did it so it makes sense for the new MGS5 trailer. Excalibur01 (talk) 00:26, 29 March 2013 (EDT)

It's not odd at all that they'd market two completely different games at the same time. Heck, Lords of Shadows 2 actually marketed both the console game and the portable game at the exact same time in E3 2012, and Epic Mickey 2 also did the same with two games that were completely different. And misdirection or not, I sincerely doubt Kojima'd refer to the opening scene of TPP as being the tutorial to the game AFTER marketing it as the same as Ground Zeroes. You can't have a tutorial level after the main prologue of a game. Did we have that in the Plant Chapter of MGS2? Operation Snake Eater in MGS3? Any of the levels after Liquid Sun in MGS4? Any of the levels after the intro to Peace Walker? There is a way for games to be separate and the same at the exact same time though: Think Sonic 4. Separate releases, same game. Pokeria1 (talk) 12:07, 21 April 2013 (EDT)

Gun wish list

Here's some guns I hope will come for the game since Kojima confirmed The Phantom Pain will take place around 1984. Excalibur01 (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2013 (EDT)

The first is a Glock and not the Glock 18. Galil

CZ75

UZI

ASP9

M14

AK74

FAL

Valmet series

Browning HP

VP70

Beretta 93R

SIG SG 540

XL64E5

FAMAS

More M16 variants

Daewoo K1 / K2

Mini-14

SA Vz.58

AR-18

Different AK variants

Guns that I personally predict would be useable: --Btgr (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2013 (EDT)

Makarov PM

Stetchkin APS

M1911A1

Any .357 Magnum revolver made by Smith & Wesson, Colt or Ruger

SPAS-12

Lee-Enfield

SKS

PPSh-41

Sterling SMG

BXP or Skorpion

AKS-74U

GP-25 (for the AK47 variant)

M203 (for the SAR-80)

FN MAG-58

PKM

RPG-7

M72 LAW

FIM-92 Stinger

RGD-5 or M67

Heckler & Koch G11

Railgun

New Red band trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gEqmkduIeMU

Am the only one, but are there quite a lot of hybrid firearms on display here? Take a closer look at those AKs, both the 7.62 and 5.56 versions. AK-74 stand-ins have a ring sight mounted on the back of the receiver, and 7.62 ones have a bizarre wooden front grip, AKS-74U patterned back sights along with a pretty western looking flash hider. Now those are some jive-ass Kalashnikovs if I ever laid my very one eyes upon one. Is anyone a bit more versed as to why Kojima suddenly went for this bizarre change? --BeloglaviSup (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2013 (EDT)

I'll admit it is unusual, but at least they look like they can exist unlike Resident Evil 6 where all guns seemed like frankenguns Excalibur01 (talk) 18:58, 11 June 2013 (EDT)

Getting the feeling of anachronism

I wonder, with the recent trailer, a lot of the tech and gear are a bit anachronistic for the 80s like Skull face's men. Excalibur01 (talk) 19:19, 11 June 2013 (EDT)

Dudes got a robot arm, I don't think historical accuracy is a big deal.--Crazycrankle (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2013 (EDT)

That's a BS argument. If that's the excuse, why not all guns be fictional and they start using halo plasma rifles and phasers? Excalibur01 (talk) 23:07, 11 June 2013 (EDT)

Kojima has said that MGS takes place in an alternate time line from the real world, so there being anachronisms in weapons and technology really shouldn't matter all that much, I mean hell, Peace Walker had some weapons that weren't made until the 80's and I believe some that weren't made until the 90's, so it's a little late for the "This is anachronistic!" arguments.Kornflakes89 (talk) 23:08, 24 September 2013 (EDT)

Kojima has confirmed that "Weapons will be based off of weapons found in the 1980's". --Btgr (talk) 04:31, 29 October 2013 (EDT)

Let's hope they actually ARE real guns and not completely fictionalized guns, as Ground Zeroes is not giving me good hopes on that (like the WU gun). I mean, with Rising, its completely acceptable, since it took place well into the future of not only our time, but also in-universe. Considering games taking place both before and after MGSV (both GZ and TPP) used real life weaponry, going the Resident Evil route is jarring, especially considering the Fox Engine was meant to bring out more realism. Pokeria1 (talk) 09:49, 24 November 2013 (EST)

I can agree. The fact that MGS4 had so many well made real life models makes this whole deal very odd to me. Why would they have made these franken guns instead of the actual weapons in the 80's? Kona (talk) 23:56, 11 July 2014 (EDT)

Single Action Army and other guns

Not much to go off but Ocelot's gun does not look like an SAA at all. It looks like some kind of top breaker. Do you think the guns in this one are going to be generic instead of actual models like they've been before?--Acepeacemaker (talk)

I would agree that it looks nothing like a Colt, more like a Webley, but it isn't a perfect match for that either. As far as I can tell every one of these weapons is a hybrid or fabrication of some sort. The AK is the same shape as an AK-47, but every single part of it is wrong in some way. The rifle used by Skull Face's guys is pretty close to a real gun, as everything up the the rear of the handguard is a SIG SG 550, but ahead of that it goes to hell (looks a bit like an FNC from that point on). --commando552 (talk) 16:12, 12 June 2013 (EDT)

Yeah back to the AK, in the shot I took of Snake disarming a guy, that AK has the elevated rear sight like a Galil Excalibur01 (talk) 16:33, 12 June 2013 (EDT)

That AK is such a mess it is ridiculous. if you look at the receiver it actually appears to be partly based on that of an FN FAL (left side reflected on both sides of the AK) with an AKM dust cover with an AKS-74U rear sight. Added to this you have the weird straight post front sight (which I think I recognise from something but can't place), the slotted flash hider which looks a bit like a shortened Druganov, a vent-less handguard which looks like it has an M16A2 handguard texture applied to it, and a gas block like nothing I have seen on an AK. Also, unless they are at different game build stages there are two different rifles here, as the one with the rear sight at the top of the back cover has a Bakelite style 5.45×39mm style mag with the shallower curve. The guns are so f'ed up in this game so far that I almost get the feeling that they weren't actually designed for it, they just took existing models from other games and messed them up in the hopes that nobody would notice. --commando552 (talk) 18:22, 12 June 2013 (EDT)

I took a look around at some AK variants and the front sight post that you mentioned you couldn't place looks like it's from the AK-74. Could also be taken from the PKM. Take a look at the entry for 9th Company and compare --DeltaOne (talk) 05:09, 25 September 2013 (EDT)

I don't think so, the AK-74 front sight has a sloped back and a cut out in the middle, whereas this is vertical front and back and has no cut out. It also attaches to the barrel in a different way to any of the AK type sights. I've since remembered the thing it reminds me of, which is the front sight used on the original Gerat 06 prototype. I highly doubt this is what they deliberately based it on as this is such an obscure weapon, but this is what it reminded me of when I first saw it:

Mauser Gerat 06 - 7.92×33mm Kurz

--commando552 (talk) 06:05, 25 September 2013 (EDT)

I just noticed, it also looks a lot like the front sight on the Knorr-Bremse paratrooper rifle prototype as seen here, the groove up the side is very similar. Both this and the Gerat 06 front sight are hooded though, although if they just used a random side on image they found as a reference you might not necessarily realise and model it as open. --commando552 (talk) 06:26, 25 September 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, the AK (in-game name is currently SVG-76) is a mingling of numerous AK-variants. Rear sights altering between the Valmet/Galil/Vektor variants and the AKMSU ones, magazines altering between the long 7.62 ones and 5.45 bakelite ones and so on. And since the AK is (arguably) inspired by StG 44, it may just also borrow elements from other weapons notably inspired by StG 44. This is probably just to have a "universal in-game AK". The game - from what I understand - takes place in handful of hotspots of early-mid 1980's and therefore it'd be tricky for armed groups - ranging from African Guerillas to Soviet Ground Forces at their technological peak - to reliably have the very specific variant of certain firearm in use, as there tends to be tiny variations from country to country. Though, why do the Soviets have the Valmet/Galil sights on their AK variants? I thought Mikhail Kalashnikov and majority of AK users in Soviet/Russian army hated the Valmet style rear sights!? TrickShotFinn (talk) 03:04, 18 August 2014 (EDT)

Let's hope the final product is a little different than advertised. In previous games, the weapons were slightly altered from early footage. In a way, the different weapon designs give off a sense of familiar yet alternate view of the period that the game takes place in. Excalibur01 (talk) 18:43, 12 June 2013 (EDT)

Anyway, you think the revolve might be a Nagant? Excalibur01 (talk) 18:45, 12 June 2013 (EDT)

Punished Snakes Camo

can anyone identify the camo snake uses in the phantom pain trailer ? looks like tiger stripe but is more arid, but not the same as the desert tiger stripe that Drebin wears

cheers

Sike (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2014 (EDT)

Drebin wears Desert DPM by the looks of it. Snake has Desert Tiger Stripe. Also it's Big Boss not Snake. Kona (talk) 23:52, 11 July 2014 (EDT)

yes i know he is Big Boss, but he is also refered to as Venom Snake(latest e3) and Kaz calls him Snake in the trailer. --Sike (talk) 08:28, 23 August 2014 (EDT)

Finished product

So from all the recent game footages, it looks like all these franken guns are going to remain. Which is unfortunate. Excalibur01 (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2014 (EDT)

Much too bad, really. MGS1 started the trend of authentic firearms in the series, and now we've jumped straight into the realm of fictional firearms. Of course, the likes of the Foxhound unit in the first game were certainly fantastical, but the modelled-from-real-life hardware gave it a certain anchor to reality. There were certainly lots of period-accurate firearms that Kojima and his team could have modelled for this game, but for no reason I can fathom, historical accuracy for firearms seems to no longer be a priority for this series, leaving us fans of authentic weaponry in games out in the cold for this title. It makes me wonder if Kojima will also use fictional guns for his upcoming Silent Hill game starring Norman Reedus, which is another Konami series that has generally used realistically-modelled guns. --Mazryonh (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2014 (EDT)

It's not even just Kojima. It's becoming a trend for games to feature mostly fictional guns. Look at Resident Evil and GTA. Both game series featured guns modeled on real life counterparts for the most part in the past. It's a shame and I hope this trend doesn't take over most games. SmithandWesson36 (talk) 12:18, 15 August 2014 (EDT)

Well, to be fair, in Peace Walker, Mother Base invented virtually every weapon that would be invented for the next thirty years, so it does sort of make sense... Evil Tim (talk) 02:49, 19 December 2014 (EST)

If it's any consolation, somebody will probably mod the game to add real weapons when it comes to PC. --yocapo32 (talk) 17:12, 19 December 2014 (EST)

My theory is Ground Zeroes (and this, if it's similar) are actually a Grim And Adult story written by Huey about Big Boss. When he reads it he glares and goes YOU'RE FIRED and kicks Huey into the sea and that's why Huey isn't working for Big Boss when Otacon is born. Calling it now. Evil Tim (talk) 11:16, 1 January 2015 (EST)

Well for the GTA series, most of the guns were pretty real. Excalibur01 (talk) 16:22, 15 August 2014 (EDT)

Yeah, I meant that GTA V didnt have real models, but the series did in the past. --SmithandWesson36 (talk) 22:33, 16 August 2014 (EDT)

Well, referring to the new Silent Hill game, Silent Hill doesn't really provide the player with any significant firepower (the MAC-10 in Silent Hill 3 was the only full auto weapon in the series so far), so I'm gonna guess that we'll be getting a hold of some kind of Beretta, or maybe a generic 1911. Heavier weapons might be generic shotguns or bolt action rifles, though. --PyramidHead (talk) 13:10, 15 August 2014 (EDT)

There was the MAC-11 in Silent Hill 4. But you didn't have direct control over that weapon. I was hoping that a Silent Hill game by Kojima would feature realistic capacities for more ingame guns (such as 15 rounds or more in a "wonder nine," like the S&W Sigma from the first game), but now that it looks like he's gone into fictional firearm territory for his flagship series that's unlikely now. --Mazryonh (talk) 04:19, 16 August 2014 (EDT)

The PMCs had the M4 and snake had a GSR right up until the release and then SBR SCAR-H's and snakes operator came out of no where... Hoping that is the case, but in yongs video, ocelots dudes still had the FNC frankengun that is paramount in every video so far... Really hoping, but worried, and think it might taint the game a little but if I have to deal with stupid guns...

Seriously, is it so hard for them to use real guns instead of inventing fictional ones? I mean the PSP game that came before all used real guns and that's a PSP Excalibur01 (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2014 (EDT)

After watching a new cutscene involving Quiet, I am just bothered by how they didn't animate a sling for Snake even in the cutscene? Seriously, it looks like it's glued to his side pouch Excalibur01 (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2014 (EDT)

Not quite sure, but I think this is largely due to cutscenes being animated in real-time, rather then being pre-rendered. --BeloglaviSup (talk) 01:33, 26 September 2014 (EDT)

I believe The revolvers Ocelot uses in the MGO trailer bare a strong resemblance to the Mateba 2006m Icould be wrong though http://img01.militaryblog.jp/usr/toyguncatalog/MATEBA-1s.jpg

We've already sorta ID the gun. It's pretty much the fictional URAGAN-5. He's even carrying the shotgun shells for the gun...Seriously I rolled my eyes that they couldn't give him back his SAAs. Excalibur01 (talk) 21:07, 1 January 2015 (EST)

I feel this further supports my idea that this story is entirely in the imagination of the guy who thought putting an Easter island head and a chainsaw arm on a tank made any kind of sense. Evil Tim (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2015 (EST)