Talk:Heckler & Koch G3

Additional Variants

G3A3ZF with Hensoldt 4x24 optical sight - 7.62x51mm NATO

HK41 with slimline handguard (1974 model as noted by its gloss black finish and lack of paddle magazine release or push-pin lower) - 7.62x51mm NATO

Namibian G3A3 - 7.62x51mm NATO

Ak 4B - 7.62x51mm NATO. The Ak 4B is a modified version of the Ak 4 (Swedish G3A3) fitted with a Picatinny rail and an Aimpoint CS red dot sight.

AG3, Norwegian variant of the Heckler & Koch G3A3 - 7.62x51mm NATO. This variant has a slightly longer stock, a different bayonet lug, and a semi circular dent in the bolt carrier to assist in manually closing the bolt. From 2008 and onwards the AG3 has been replaced by the Heckler & Koch HK416N.

AG-3F2 - 7.62x51mm NATO. This is a improvement of the AG-3F1, which is the Norwegian G3A4, featuring a retactable stock and Picatinny rails on the receiver as well as the handguard.

PTR 91 SC - 7.62x51mm NATO

PTR 91 FR - 7.62x51mm NATO

PTR 91 KFM4R - 7.62x51mm NATO

PTR 32 KFR - 7.62x39mm

PTR 32 KFM4R - 7.62x39mm

PTR PDW R outfitted with A3 retractable stock, B&T QD vertical grip, Vortex Sparc II red dot sight on an MFI rail, and Bill Springfield paddle release - 7.62x51mm NATO

Ak 4 with Spuhr R-410 stock and handguard - 7.62x51mm NATO

Heckler & Koch PSG-1 with 20-round magazine and tripod - 7.62x51mm NATO

Actual HK91A3 used by Larry Philips Jr. in The North Hollywood Shootout on display at the Los Angeles Police Museum. Note that it was modified to have a paddle magazine release.

Screen-Used

The Sniper 'build up' PSG1 from Props Company Limited. It's a fake 'build up' PSG1 (much like the SR9TC rifles in Hollywood), created by putting long barrel (note that it is slimmer than a real PSG heavy barrel), or a barrel sleeve extender, along with the recognizable forearm, buttstock and pistol grip on a standard HK91/G3 body. A build up like this would cost under $1000, whereas a real German PSG-1 sells for $10,000 - $35,000.

Screen-used Heckler & Koch G3A4 from Mad Max: Fury Road. Image from MIL.SPEC.

Custom "spy rifle" made for Interception (Perekhvat), built on Iranian G3 trigger group

Airsoft Variants

Classic Army SAR Offizier SAR M41, an airsoft rifle based on the G3.

Heckler & Koch G3 SAS High Cycle (Airsoft Replica) - 6mm

Heckler & Koch G3SAS (Airsoft Replica) - 6mm

Discussion

Picture of the G3 SG/1 is incorrect, the German army G3 SG/1 was fitted with a smaller non illuminated scope on a H&K proprietary "claw" type mounting, and has complicated "set" trigger mechanism visible as a second "trigger" behind the normal trigger.

G3A3 photo is wrong

The G3A3 photo with the green furniture has been bugging me for a while. The G3A2-A3 rifles always had metal lowers. The Navy style all plastic lower is not an HK G3A2 or A3 lower. That photo is of the American clone, the Vektor arms copy of the G3/HK91. I'm going to photograph a REAL G3A3 soon with the proper furniture since that shot really irritates me. MoviePropMaster2008 04:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

- Heh, I didn't even think about whether it was entirely genuine or not, though something did seem off about it. Well, get us the right picture then damn it! :b StanTheMan 15:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

HK21

HK21 should have its own page since it has four variants of its own.--SB2296 05:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Fully automatic?

Is the g3 when fired on fully automatic jumpy and hard to control like the FAL? Since both fire the same round.--P226

depends on your level of training and experience. I have friends who use M14, G3, FN FAL in full auto competitions and they all find the various rifles controlable. Yeah the recoil is heavier than a 5.56mm weapon but for most combat ranges the weapons are effective on full auto. Rockwolf66 18:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

HK51?

There are only a few pages on the site that feature this gun so it isn't really that important, but isn't the term HK51 wrong? The original manufacturer of this variant was the UK fire FR Ordnance who made three variants (MC51, MC51SD and MC51K) for British special forces. It was later manufactured by Imperial Defence Services after they bought up FR Ordnance. Isn't the term HK51 just a made up name for after-market modifications to G3s to replicate the MC51, so surely the original term is more appropriate? --commando552 17:35, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

Some people seem to have the notion that the "MC51" was an airsoft original, so you'll have to deal with them first before this gets setteled. --HashiriyaR32 19:12, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

No the term HK51 is apropriate as that is the term most commonly used by the manufacturers of such weapons used by the film industry. While I am familiar with the term MC51 its not the correct title for anything in the American film industry. Such as the Flemming HK51K used in Marked for Death. Rockwolf66 13:35, 29 January 2012 (CST)

PSG

Since the PSG is its own weapon and not a Variant of the G3, doesn't it warrant it's own page? --Zackmann08 08:17, 25 December 2011 (CST)

Not really, it's still fundamentally a G3, just with some modifications. --Jeddostotle7 9:52, 1/18/2011 (PST)

SR9s

There are a few pages on here that say something like "This gun is actually a conversion of an HK91, like all of the SR9s seen in Hollywood movies" (this is from the Under Siege 2: Dark Territory page before I changed it). Is this true, as that makes no sense to me. The SR9 was a version of the G3 that was made specifically for the US market, so why would all models of it in Hollywood movies be mock ups? There were only about 4,000 made so it is relatively rare I will grant you, but I'm pretty sure rarer guns that this still turn up in films and TV. In some cases though, including the example above, you can tell that it is actually a genuine SR9 as it has the rounded handguard, which was unique to the SR9 rifles. --commando552 09:22, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

That is what MoviePropMaster2008 told me a long time ago - there are no genuine SR9s in Hollywood armories, just HK91s converted to SR9 specification. Since he's an armorer himself, I imagine he would have a pretty good idea of what he's talking about. As for the hand guard, that's not the best way to tell. You have to look at other details, like the lower receiver (many of the mock-up SR9s in movies have the standard HK91 trigger pack instead of the SR9 version). -MT2008 11:11, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

MPM did personally ID an SR9 in a page I finished, so there is at least one out there. --Funkychinaman 11:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

I think there is alot of confusion about this variant, as on the G.I. Jane page is says it can't be a genuine SR9 as it has no forward assist. The SR9 didn't have a forward assist as it is purely a HK91 with different furniture and a few other tweaks to get around the assault weapons ban. From what i have seen from a quick look around here, most of the weapons that are likely a genuine SR9 (have the rounded handguard without the grooves along with the correct) appear to be SR9(T)s. Don't know if they are literally the same prop being used or whether this was just the most popular version. A this is the version that uses an MSG-90 stock, I think this would make it wore likely to be a genuine weapon, as to build it you would first need to have an SR9 handguard (which I'm assuming there are only as many as there were SR9s), and then the stock from an even rarer weapon (assuming it is rare in the US as it has never appeared in anything other than games). for reference, below are the genuine SR9 variants.

SR9

SR9(T)

SR9(TC)

I don't know if the thumbhole stock SR9 has appeared in anything, but a (TC) fitted with a HK91 forend and bipod was the rifle used in Sniper. --commando552 13:19, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

I think this debate is somewhat moot, but here are some things to keep in mind:

• Yes, you are correct that SR9s didn't have a forward assist, but MPM has specifically told me that most of the SR9s imported to the U.S. (there were 4,000 made, but some of them were sold in other countries, so the number imported here is much lower) were just HK91 conversions, because none of Hollywood's armories were able to get their hands on the real weapons before collectors snatched them up. Also, looking at the hand guard is a BAD way to tell whether the weapon is an HK91 conversion or not, because that feature is easily replaceable (I've seen HKPRO members whose HK91s have the SR9 hand guard, or SR9s with the HK91 hand guard, in topics on the HKPRO message board).

• If you're going by the hand guard as the identifying characteristic of genuine SR9s, why is the SR9(TC) from Sniper a genuine example? It has an HK91 hand guard and bipod (not features of the factory), and I seem to remember MPM telling me that he knows for sure that the rifle from Sniper is a converted HK91. You can ask him how he knows this (I assume he knows the armorer from that movie).

• One of the other things you should look for, as I mentioned beforehand, is the trigger group. There are many faux "SR9s" in movies that have the S-F trigger group (found on factory HK91s) instead of the 0-1 trigger group (which is found on factory SR9s). If you see an "SR9" in a movie that has an S-F trigger group, that's the easiest way to know that you're looking at an HK91 converted to SR9 specs (the most obvious example is the SR9(T) from The Replacement Killers, where the lower receiver is shown close-up during a scene in which the rifle is assembled by Til Schweiger's character). Not all of the Hollywood SR9s have the incorrect trigger group, but even that doesn't mean that the rifle is genuine; it just means that it is a more accurate SR9 conversion (MPM2008's personal rifles, which he photographed for our site, both have 0-1 trigger groups, and he converted them from HK91s himself). The same might be true of the SR9s in Under Siege 2: Dark Territory and G.I. Jane (both of which seem to have the 0-1 trigger group).

• I'm not entirely sure why we're having this debate. Although we made a note on the G3 page under the SR9 entry that most SR9s are just HK91 conversions, we do not tend to label SR9 mock-ups as such (we just call them "SR9s", since that's what they appear to be on-camera). The only thing I know is what MPM tells me, and he is pretty familiar with the habits of American armorers. So if he tells me that there are almost no genuine SR9 variants floating around the industry, I tend to trust him.

Of course, what MPM says applies only to American armorers. It's possible that there are genuine SR9s sitting in the inventories of armories in Canada, Europe, Asia, etc. -MT2008 14:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Also, if anyone here has Sniper on Blu-Ray or even DVD, it would be much appreciated if they would watch the movie and identify the trigger group on Billy Zane's rifle. I haven't seen Sniper in a long time, but I seem to remember several scenes where the rifle's lower receiver is shown close-up when Zane's finger is on the trigger (but I never paid attention the lower receiver because I didn't know what I know now, or care). Sadly, the single screencap we have on the page for Sniper is inadequate for solving this puzzle. If his rifle has the S-F trigger group, we'll know it's a converted HK91 instead of a real SR9. -MT2008 14:07, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Sniper is Netflix instant view right now. I'll take a look. --Funkychinaman 14:19, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

To address MT2008 points:

• I don't think that is true about the number of SR9s imported into the US being "much lower" than 4000. The SR9 was made specifically for the US market so I don't know why it would be sold in significant numbers anywhere else. The number I have frequently seen quoted on forums and the like for the number of SR9s imported into the US is between 3000 and 4000. In fact, I was always under the impression that all SR9s were imported to the US at the default spec, and some of these (no idea on numbers hereAs for the handguard being a poor means of identification, I don't agree with this in the case of this rifle. As this handguard was sepecific to this particular rifle, it is different to slapping a round handguard onto a M16A1 and calling it an A2. Unless companies now make copies of the SR9 handguard in significant numbers, there are pretty much the same number of SR9 handguards out there as there are SR9s, so the way I see it is if you are looking at an SR9 handguard it is more likely than not attached to an SR9.
• Maybe the Sniper gun was a converted HK91, I have no way of knowing. I read that from HKPRO's World of HK and have also seen it stated in a few other places. They might all be sharing the same incorrect source on this though, so it could very well be an HK91. However, it was MPM2008 who identified this as an SR9TC on the page in the first place.
• Agree with you on the trigger group thing. As you can also get aftermarket 0/1 trigger groups for the HK91 I would not use this as the sole indicator as to whether it was an SR9 as opposed to a modded HK91. Would therefore also agree that a rifle with and S/F selector was not an SR9, for example the one in the The Jackal (which looks nothing like an SR9 to me, more like an HK91 mocked up as an MSG90 with a PSG1 stock).
• The reason I asked the question was that there were a number of page here that stated that there were no genuine SR9s in movies, which seemed like an incorrect statement as in my opinion there at least seems to be SR9(T)s in several films. Call me picky, but I think it is worth distinguishing between genuine guns and those that are a mock up. --commando552 15:42, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

I got a sightlier earlier shot where you can see the markings, which I think proves it it a genuine SR9 (not necessarily a TC, but an SR9 of some sort).

The top line of the markings on an HK91, with X's representing the seriel number digits in "HK91 A0XXXXX", wheras on an SR9 the markings are "SR9 46-00XXXX". You can just about make out the "46", and if not that you can at least tell that it isnt "HK91". Also, the second line of the marking is too long for an HK91 which is "Cal..308" as opposed to the longer "HK Cal.7.62x51" on the SR9. I'm not saying this means every potential SR9 is one, just that this particular gun is a genuine SR9. --commando552 20:00, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

OK, it looks like I was wrong about something - apparently, H&K switched to the 0-1 trigger pack on ALL of its civilian long guns at some point in the 1980s (later-model HK91s, 93s, and 94s also have it), including the HK91s that MPM photographed from his inventory. But the S-F trigger pack was abandoned before the introduction of the SR9, which means that if you do see an "SR9" with an S-F lower in a movie or TV show, you are most definitely looking at a conversion of an older HK91 (the other way around, it's not so obvious).

Point taken on the hand guards, and also the ID of the Sniper SR9. As far as the issue goes, maybe we should weaken the language of the page to say that most SR9s seen in Hollywood are HK91 conversions, leaving open the possibility that there are some genuine examples floating around in the industry. Again, I can only defer to MPM's expertise because I'm not an armorer. But when he posted his SR9 pictures, he specifically told me that his guns are converted HK91s and that this is standard practice in the industry because armorers didn't buy any of the ones imported to the U.S. -MT2008 22:45, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

How to tell the difference between an HK91 and SR9?

Since it would appear that a lot of the parts are interchangeable and that H&K was inconsistent on a few features, is there a sure-fire way to determine whether or not a rifle is a converted HK91 or a genuine SR9? (Short of having an armorer chime in or a picture of the serial number, of course.) --Funkychinaman 13:48, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

The SR9's barrel lacks threading to attach a flash hider or sound suppressor. Also the magazine well will be engraved either SR9 or SR9T instead of HK91. Last but not least SR9's are rarely imitated, as they had a rather unusual looking thumb hole stock, the look that is usually imitated is that of the SR9T which had the PSG1 pistol grip and the MSG90 stock.Dover500 14:12, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

Edit: The discussion above me actually does a better job explaining the differences, but it would seem that the barrel would be the easiest way to tell as that is the only part that I have not seen on other versions of the G3 (the PSG1 barrel is longer, and most other versions have a flash hider of some sort attached).Dover500 14:25, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

Using the barrel is not 100% accurate, the guns pictured in the SR9 section are mock ups and they have the apparently correct 20" unthreaded barrel (genuine SR9 barrels have polygonal rifling rather than grooves but I doubt you could ever see this in a movie/show). I believe that in addition to the SR9s that were imported H&K also imported SR9 barrels, as well as the fact that a number of companies make after-market unthreaded 20" barrels. I assume that if a rifle has the correct unique to the SR9 handguard (and stock if the base model) it is probably genuine, but would have to look at the markings to know for sure. Particularly when you take into account that not only could SR9s be fitted with standard furniture, they were in fact shipped with the HK91 stock and handguard at various points. --commando552 16:04, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

What about barrel thickness? This one has what would appear to be a bull barrel. --Funkychinaman 16:51, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

That looks too thick to me to be a genuine SR9 barrel, could just be a regular HK91 barrel with a sleeve over it or a heavier after-market barrel. Another thing to bear in mind with SR9s is that of the 4000 that were made only 125 were the TC configuration with the PSG-1 stock, so odds are that if you are seeing a rifle with a PSG-1 stock it is a mock up in one way or another. --commando552 17:24, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

Well, I was just guessing. But that goes to my original point: If everything is modular, is there any practical way to tell? From what I can tell, handguards, pistol grips, stocks, trigger groups and barrels can come in various configurations. --Funkychinaman 17:42, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

Apart from the format of the markings, no (see the above topic). However, as the handguard that the genuine SR9 rifles use is unique to them and as far as I know nobody makes a replica of it, I use this as a general rule as the whether something is likely to be genuine. --commando552 17:52, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

Alright. Thanks. --Funkychinaman 18:08, 9 May 2012 (CDT)

Ak4 difference

So, is there really any difference between the Ak4 and the ordinary G3(A3?) I saw what looked like a brass deflector on the Ak4 OR, but otherwise i can't tell if there's anything new on it, externally atleast.--AnActualAK47 (talk) 21:15, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

I think all models have the brass deflector (except early ones), and the Ak4s visibly also have a slightly longer stock, scalloped bolt carrier, S-P-A selector markings, a couple of reinforcing dimples behind the front trigger housing pin, an all metal charging handle, and maybe a couple of other things that I am forgetting. Non visibly, there are also some internal differences such as modifications under the handguard to allow an M203, a heavier recoil buffer in the stock, a less rattly mechanism for the magazine release, and different dioptre sight markings. I believe that a few of these differences (at least bolt carrier, stock and charging handle) are used on other nationality versions like the Danish G3A5 and Norwegian AG3. --commando552 (talk) 04:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

That was more than i expected. Thanks!--AnActualAK47 (talk) 16:06, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

Late entry: The modern AK 4 is today only used by the Swedish Home Guard under the name AK 4B. It incorporates a rail and red-point sight as seen in the photo in the discussion above. Both the older and new AK 4 incorporates several grooves on the bolt head. This enables you to more easily close the bolt silently with your thumb, like a forward assist on the M16. I was also told that all the AK 4 variants in the Swedish Armed Forces (Home Guard specifically) are able to mount the M203 grenade launcher. My own AK 4B also has the fittings for the M203. (I am a member of the Home Guard). Some news though: As of this post (may 2016) the Home Guard are introducing foldable stocks to their existing AK 4B's. I do not know the final goal of this change, but as of yet the soldiers most in need of this new stock (truck drivers, rear area people, others) will be the first one equipped. Dudester32 (talk) 15:17, 21 May 2016 (EDT)

Edit: Brass catchers have always been optional, but the SAF have used them since the beginning in order to cut costs on ammo by recycling the brass. It's also an enviromental issue. Dudester32 (talk) 15:18, 21 May 2016 (EDT)

Earliest appearance in American media

I got the DVDs for Season 3 of The Man from UNCLE today, and as I was flipping through the first disc, in episode two, I saw an UNCLE agent with HK91. In a episode that aired in 1966! Is that the earliest appearance of any G3/HK91 variant? --Funkychinaman (talk) 23:06, 28 January 2016 (EST)

Most likely this is the earliest appearance. The only other show from the 60's that I know of to use these rifles is Jericho, which also aired in 1966. I'm guessing that these aren't select fire G3s, but HK41 rifles, imported to the U.S. For the civilian market, since they would have been easier to obtain.-- Phillb36 (talk) 01:02, 29 January 2016 (EST)

Unknown variant

Came across this deactivated G3, never seen one with furniture like this before. Is it aftermarket, mislabeled by the website or an actual variant?Deactivated G3--Slemke1998 (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2016 (EDT)

That is a Spanish CETME L, not a G3.--AgentGumby (talk) 17:45, 6 April 2016 (EDT)

G3 receiver mating?

With the M16 rifle series it is possible to do what is commonly (sometimes?) called "receiver mating". If you install an M16A2 upper receiver on an A1 lower, you will essentially get a fully-automatic M16A2. Are similar manipulations possible with the G3 series? For example, can you "mate" a G3 (G3SG/1 or even HK91) upper onto a MSG90 lower, similarly to this model from Left 4 Dead 2?

The HK MSG90A1 model. Note the AK-74 muzzle brake.

What I see is essentially a G3 (or HK91 given the lack of paddle mag release) with a weird barrel, a scope, and MSG90 stock and trigger group. Are the parts from these rifles interchangeable enough to get such a combo in real life? DJ_von_CAHEK (talk) 05:44, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

Never mind, just found some photos of a 91 with an MSG90 trigger group. DJ_von_CAHEK (talk) 06:53, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

In answer to your original question, yes, you can generally interchange the trigger housing (the lower). As for that particular trigger housing, it isn't actually an MSG90 one as although it has the trigger shoe it has S/F markings whereas the real MSG90 is 0/1. I think that this particular lower is US made and originated with the PTR-91 but not 100% sure on that. --commando552 (talk) 09:45, 28 October 2017 (EDT)