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Talk:Gribeauval 12-Pounder Cannon
Does it qualify?
This is field artillery piece. Does it qualify? If yes - then there is a lot of similar weapons in lot of other movies and they must have their pages also. Greg-Z 00:18, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
"What we do not allow are weapons which are too large to be operated by either an individual or small crew or are used primarily as indirect fire delivery systems. This disqualifies fuel air bombs, all air dropped bombs, mortars, artillery, IEDs, most explosive ordnance." --Zackmann08 00:23, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
Yes, it´s right - 15 crews, 6 horses :) Sorry ...--Pandolfini 01:54, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
But it was used in the direct fire role, to shoot columns, which qualifies it. Sangheili1155 06:09, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
- Every field gun can be used for direct fire. There is no tactical difference between Napoleonic 12-pounder and WW1 French 75. Greg-Z 06:37, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
- Except this gun is ONLY capable of direct fire. --Funkychinaman 07:46, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
- If YOU consider 15 men and 6 horses a 'small crew' ..... Ultimately there will be SOME gun that will wiggle its way through the rules. you have to consider if you let it through, you'll have to live with ALL of the avalanche of the rest of them and deal with the arguments as to why the others aren't allowed. I say, NO GO. True, most cannons before 1870 had iron sights and were essentially direct fire because the powder and munitions had such short range. They were limited by their technology. More powerful loads would explode the cannon. In it's earliest incarnations, Cannons were siege weapons, replacing the catapults and the trebuchet, blasting the crap out of fortress or castle walls. Later when facing massed infantry, the cannons were sometimes loaded with chain and grape shot, but again it was still a 'general area' devastation weapon. Still, THE most common load was the cannonball which had a secondary charge inside that exploded later at an generally 'undetermined' time. Only after 1870 did the artillery become good enough to actually go Miles and miles against a target area (which was their primary purpose). Of course this is just me musing. I welcome the opinions of guys with more cannon expertise than me. I still cringe because of all of the cannons that we essentially have NO information on. Many, and I mean A LOT of them in movies are total mockups. Beautiful Fiberglass fakes with pyrotechnicals charges inside. There are SOME real ones and in movies like Gettysburg a lot of them are privately owned original examples. Just some things for you guys to think about. :) MoviePropMaster2008
- I'm well aware of the potential for more like these, but if you're going to scrap it, then scrap it for reasons covered in the rules. Kill the page because it's a replica, not actually the real thing. --Funkychinaman 14:28, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
- If YOU consider 15 men and 6 horses a 'small crew' ..... Ultimately there will be SOME gun that will wiggle its way through the rules. you have to consider if you let it through, you'll have to live with ALL of the avalanche of the rest of them and deal with the arguments as to why the others aren't allowed. I say, NO GO. True, most cannons before 1870 had iron sights and were essentially direct fire because the powder and munitions had such short range. They were limited by their technology. More powerful loads would explode the cannon. In it's earliest incarnations, Cannons were siege weapons, replacing the catapults and the trebuchet, blasting the crap out of fortress or castle walls. Later when facing massed infantry, the cannons were sometimes loaded with chain and grape shot, but again it was still a 'general area' devastation weapon. Still, THE most common load was the cannonball which had a secondary charge inside that exploded later at an generally 'undetermined' time. Only after 1870 did the artillery become good enough to actually go Miles and miles against a target area (which was their primary purpose). Of course this is just me musing. I welcome the opinions of guys with more cannon expertise than me. I still cringe because of all of the cannons that we essentially have NO information on. Many, and I mean A LOT of them in movies are total mockups. Beautiful Fiberglass fakes with pyrotechnicals charges inside. There are SOME real ones and in movies like Gettysburg a lot of them are privately owned original examples. Just some things for you guys to think about. :) MoviePropMaster2008
- Except this gun is ONLY capable of direct fire. --Funkychinaman 07:46, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
Like this: I do not think it's a "small crew". Originally I no wanted to put it, but I noticed some anti-tank cannon for direct fire is here, and so I have included also this cannon. In the film of him shooting the two royalist rebels (but another two accordance a ball, so all together about four), so I thought it would not matter ...--Pandolfini 14:10, 8 June 2012 (CDT) Oh and another thing - here are mortars!--Pandolfini 14:20, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
- I was referring to Funkychinaman not your point, however, I did use your good trivia to talk about the crew size. Also, re: mortars, And also just pointing out pages that may violate the rules doesn't prove anything. There are tons of stuff here which need review, but the Mods don't have the time to catch EVERYTHING. We have many members like you who have tons more free time than we do. The IMFDB mods are volunteer, not paid like IMDB. At any rate, I solicited more viewpoints on this matter at the end of my post. MoviePropMaster2008
You sure about the crew of 15? I'm qualified as gun crew on Civil War artiley and they only have 8 crew (4 on the gun, powder monkey, gun captain, 2 at the limber) And this is definitly direct fire. Cannon, as a general rule, only fired solid shot. Explosive rounds were limited to mortars until about the Civil War era, and then (IIRC) mostly to rifled guns. --Mandolin 16:07, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
Also, as was noted on the main page, this weapon's range was only 1,000 yards when firing standard cannon balls. Grapeshot (midsize round balls) had less range, and canister (musket balls in a tin can) have even less range. This is a direct-fire weapon only, and should qualify for inclusion.--Mandolin 16:12, 8 June 2012 (CDT)
- Hmmmmm. You seem to have a bias because you're a redhat LOL. I opine that it does violate the spirit of the rule "small crew" in that even with your smaller number, you have 8 men to operate one device. That's not a small crew and if we're' going to get all 'lawyer like' with our interpretations, any weapon that requires almost a full squad to operate in combat is does not qualify. Some of the more modern guns like the mini gun or 25mm cannons can be operated by an individual once in place. Again, now I know why so many rules are so long (and written by lawyers) because people are so clever about going around the spirit of the wording with a strict interpretation. :D MoviePropMaster2008
- Can we agree to an actual number then? No more than a x man crew to operate? --Funkychinaman 00:09, 9 June 2012 (CDT)
- Hmmmmm. You seem to have a bias because you're a redhat LOL. I opine that it does violate the spirit of the rule "small crew" in that even with your smaller number, you have 8 men to operate one device. That's not a small crew and if we're' going to get all 'lawyer like' with our interpretations, any weapon that requires almost a full squad to operate in combat is does not qualify. Some of the more modern guns like the mini gun or 25mm cannons can be operated by an individual once in place. Again, now I know why so many rules are so long (and written by lawyers) because people are so clever about going around the spirit of the wording with a strict interpretation. :D MoviePropMaster2008
That number 15 says on Wikipedia, from which I took dates for the characteristic. But it's mainly men from cavalry, not the actual gun. Thus, for the six-horse of train. The cannons as I wrote, fired three to four men, and if there was a strong man can lift the ball as it could, theoretically burn yourself and on the direct fire. Mortars there is a whole group and I think it's good. These are small arms, which usually serve two people, but can an individual. I only saw it because, according to the quoted text does not belong here. This would, however, be applied to mortars as German Fat Bertha - use in Verdun, Sevastopol, Leningrad , etc.--Pandolfini 00:28, 9 June 2012 (CDT)