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User talk:MT2008
Heat reply
I figured that it was something to do with the foreign exchange. I had an assumption it was similair to how the Glocks are in generations, 1s being the oldest ones with the least new feattures, 2s being slightly better, and 3s being the newest. I've also seen the R models with the tactical rails and moaybe that is a 3rd gen variation as well.
A pic and an update
Hey there. Got a few minutes. When I get a few minutes, I will be changing the several pages where we explore the different natures of guns (the US Marshals page , the M16 page and the Sahara Page). I will be clarifying the SP1 Sporter to a Colt Sporter Carbine, since I've seen both the version you posted (and the ones I have access to are actually still marked M16A1, so they were converted with a sporter TOP receiver after the fact. I am also going to take another pic of a Colt 733 that's actually marked Colt 733. My previous 733 pic turned out to be a conversion of an M16 receiver to a 733 looking gun. I am also cleaning up the Sahara page since I asked a few armorer/experts locally and they all think it's the foreign equivalent of the Romanian WASR-3 AK gun that we imported into this country. I don't know what the foreign countries called their version, but the best I can do is list it as the closest version that's verifiable in this country.
Here's a pic for you. Why am I grumpy sometimes? cuz, I am STILL looking at a rack of 24 AKMs that need cleaning. I still have to clean 17 AR-15 rifles. And the vault has all the stuff that needs either a major cleaning/refinishing or fixing. The tagged ones need replacement parts.
Now here's a pop quiz. Can you ID any of the guns in my 'to do list' vault? ;) Let me know if you can ID any of them. LOL!
Long barreled AKs
Wow! You did it. Amazing. No, I don't know what the hell that AK is. I've never seen an underfolder Long barreled AK for sale in the U.S. So it must be an Australian/Canadian thing. I guess that's a mystery we will have to bug the foreign armorers about. Wasn't there a Canadian armorer here on IMFDB a while ago? I don't remember well. Anyway, I also hope you don't think I was too harsh re: the HEAT updates. The vast majority of IMFDB users seem to be guys who are too young to buy a handgun, and some are too young to have a driver's license. Anyway I gotta take a break and get back to some movie sets here. :) I will try to get pics of the more famous guns when I can. But my contributions will drop down until I get some more free days. Thanks again. MPM2008
re:Sahara
It's kinda strange, though...I wouldn't have figured British armorers would use civilian AK variants that were essentially geared towards the U.S. firearms market.
re: British armorers, I've never met Sascha Robey. All I know is that Robey did the guns for the American TV Miniseries "The path to 9/11" but only the sequences shot in Morocco.
A lot of armorers are just the 'licensed experts' on the set. They subrent their guns from large armories. That's why I don't have screen credit for many majors I worked on, since I wasn't the on set armorer, I just rented them the guns (like any vendor) and we only rent to armorers (aka weapons wranglers) that we know and trust. I think Robey got the guns from Bapty's movie armory of London (just an educated guess).
When I was going to school at Cambridge University (a long time ago) I did get to visit Bapty's Armory (got to see a lot of the guns used in all those movies shot at all those BIG British Studio stages - like the 007 movies). Well the Romak 223 is the import name for the 'castrated' gun that our lovely BATFE allows to be imported. The romanians made a bunch of identical guns for sale to other countries where civilians can own semiautomatic rifles. I noticed that Zahn's gun had (a) a threaded front end of the barrel and (b) a bayonet lug, which usually imported guns after 1990 had to have removed. So it's probably a Romanian export gun that the British armorers picked up that has not been modified to be imported into the U.S. Sigh.... to be able to get such unaltered guns again. Now we have a bunch of US makers upgrading and making their own AKs, but I like the 'appeal' of getting stuff that's really FOREIGN and foreign built in a factory in a far off land. Even though the lowly British law abiding citizen can't own Squat, their movie armorers can get almost anything they need. UNLIKE the U.S. (especially California) which makes it more difficult to be a movie armorer every year.
BTW: I uploaded a detail shot of the Type 84 with the features I was talking about. I hope it helps.
best regards MoviePropMaster2008
Sahara
Thanks for the help on the typo with the Norinco Type 56-1. As you probably know by the time stamps I edited that at 2:00 am PST and was pretty tired. Thanks for catching stuff like that.
But Zahn's gun is not the Type 84 despite the fact that the gas tube has vent holes like the Type 65/84 guns. The Type 84 is a deep blued finish, this gun has the semi gloss black paint finish of European AKs, the Magazine is NOT a Type 84 (not even close), but it does resemble the newer Romanian Romak 223 magazines (thus my question), and the front sight is an open top European AKM style, not the hooded .75" spaced Type 84 Front sight and finally the gas block is missing a notch that the Type 84 has and it looks lke the front sight sling is attached to the front of the handguards (AKM) and not on the gas block (Type 84). I looked at a Type 84 before I posted the pics, so I am sure that it is NOT a type 84, there are too many differences that an armorer just wouldn't do (like repainting a blued gun or replacing the front sight or using a magazine that I am not sure would even fit in the magazine well). In fact if they did replace the Type 84 front sight block with an AKM sight, you would be able to see the notch in the top of the barrel of the second pin for the wider front sight. It would be visible. The smaller AKM sight doesn't cover it on the barrel. So again I will try to figure out what type of AK it is. Since Sahara is a newer movie it would well be a recent US built or US part upgraded imported AK rifle.
ON another note:
So what do you think of the screen caps? I purposely kept the Zahn pics big temporarily so the details of the gun could be seen. But i've noticed that whenever I work hard on a largely ignored page, THEN people start tweaking it, after I've put in hours working on it and before I'm finished :) what's up with that? Just the way things work I guess. :)
(But YOUR input is always welcome. I haven't shot any new gun pics yet. I usually wait until I have several dozen items to photograph before I go through the trouble of setting up a white background). Best regards MPM2008
Thanks for the help
Thanks for helping out on some of my articles, specifically The Siege and Star Trek: Voyager. I just recently got the ability to take screenshots from DVD's on my computer, but don't have either of those. Keep up the good work. Orca1 9904 20:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Orca1_9904
Guns in The Siege
You actually got a picture of the Browning M2 in one of your M60 screenshots, namely the one where it's being fired during the Redhook chop shop scene. As for the M203, look closely at one of the soldiers keeping the press mob out of the stadium. Also, don't forget the H&K MP5's during the bus hijacking/bombing scene. Orca1 9904 21:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Orca1_9904
- Here's the screenshot in question; the barrel is definitely too long to be a Mk 19 grenade launcher. Note that it also lacks the muzzle brake as well.
Orca1 9904 21:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Orca1_9904
Good to have you back. :)
Backups are automatic and daily now - 4 am every day and automatically uploaded to seperate servers for archival. :)
You can't merge a page - but you can copy all the content from one to another and then drop a line to an admin to redirect the old page to the new one. WikiSysop 03:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I've redirected the pages you requested. WikiSysop 14:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
hello
Hi there. Just thought I'd seek to clarify the Red Dawn discussion, per your suggestion.
The MISR may have been the Egyptian's name for the gun in their factories overseas (several books refer to it, Clinton Ezell's book mentions it in 1986), but my point was that the Egyptians never marked or called their export gun to the U.S. - the MISR. In fact the only MISR guns that were legally imported into the U.S. (marked MISR) were after 1990 and they were 'post ban' guns, hastily hand 'etched' with the words "MISR" on the trunion.
I was probably nit picking since I don't know if alot of people really cared which import version was used in what movie. I wouldn't really care, BUT ... when people say MISR, everyone here in the states, automatically thinks of the post 1990 thumbhole monstrosities, not the better crafted ARMs of the early 1980s. I know for a fact that Syd Stembridge (who worked on Red Dawn and I spoke to about it) scoffed and thought of the crappy 'post ban MISR rifles' when I mentioned it to him. He said "Nope, we used ARMs not MISRs". So even he was thinking about the MISR imported gun. Hmmmmm.
Does it matter? I don't know. I'm tempted to edit out the discussion entirely, but I'm not sure how. Perhaps a note addressing what the imported versions actually had stamped on them (and had written in their owners manuals). What do you think?
A little bit of my background: :)
I was buying Maadi rifles back in 1983 (before Red Dawn came out). Thus I remember what they were called at the time. At no time had I ever seen the rifles referred to a MISR back in 1984 or earlier. Sales brochures, invoices, company documentation. That's really the only reason I was convinced that Maadi did not ship guns to US under that name.
I own nearly every variant of AK imported into this country prior to 1999. That includes ARMs, RPLs, MISRs, AKS-47, Type 84s, Type 56 Sporters, MAK-90s, SA-85s, Yugo M76s, etc. etc.
Any way. You've done a GREAT job updating and posting things. I don't want to give the impression that I don't realize that you're a super contributor.
Any way, keep up the fantastic work. :) and looking forward to your thoughts re: the re-edit of the page.
best regards MoviePropMaster2008
I am re-editing Red Dawn
It just hit me. I can cut out all my rantings and just put in a note, that the MISR rifle is not referring to the post ban imported version call the 'MISR' and was imported under the name ARM. If that's okay, I'll cut out all the stuff under your original paragraph. Thanks. MoviePropMaster2008
Type 84
No problem. I will be happy to hunt down the Type 84 (the vault is big and kinda a pain to go through) ;) . I converted a bunch to AK74 though (i.e. put on the imported Russian parts and gas tubes, front sights, etc. to make them 'look' like AK74s. But I might have one left that is not all messed up. I don't believe that I have any left that retain the original Chinese 'fully enclosed' sight hood any more, unfortunately. Will this do? I can also put the original factory wood back on for the photo. Do you want it in original factory configuration? I can also put it into the SAME config as any of the movie or projects you want it for (i.e. put hungarian Blonde wood on them, etc.). Just let me know. It might take some time, though. I have to set up the photographic white table top setup all over again and will probably wait until I have a bunch of guns to photograph before I do it again. best regards MoviePropMaster2008
Incredible Hulk Grenade Launchers
I was under the impression the multi-shot grenade launchers in The Incredible Hulk were some sort of Milkor MGL derivative, like the M32? Orca1 9904 22:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC) Orca1_9904
My two cents on the Hulk Launchers
It looks like the back end of a Def tech 37mm launcher but the front end of a M32. Also the cylinder (and rotator mechanism) doesn't look like anything out there. It's too short to be the DEFTECH but the rotator gear is in the back, not the front, like it should be on the M32. The Milkors have a 'pop up' back end and the style of the buttstock looks completely different. I think it's a "Frankenstein gun" - perhaps the prop dept. took several Deftech 37mm launchers and chopped and styled them to resemble the M32. Check out the comparison pic and let me know what you think. :) Best regards MoviePropMaster2008| (P.S. - I don't hang out with the armorers in Canada being that we never cross paths. I wish I could so that I could ask them).
File:Hulk-Launcher-Comparison1.jpg
I'll send you a pic of that very launcher from the shop.
Your CZ99 pic
I cleaned up your CZ99 pic in Photoshop. It's the same pic, but color corrected. Can I repost it? Thanks. MoviePropMaster2008
Editing Dogs of War
I am thinking of doing some more updates on Dogs of War, hope you don't mind. ;) GOOD CALL! on the "imitation" Uzis in "Raw Deal" and "Stripes". In Stripes I thought you were talking about "Winger" (Bill Murray) but he was holding an unadorned MAC-10, but you were right, it was Joe Flaherty as the Czech border guard who had the "uzi cover" on the MAC-10. You have an eagle eye! Most people would have missed that one! Those guns were 'conversions' made by Special Effects Unlimited, Inc. in the 1970s. The company did mostly pyrotechnics (Stembridge, Ellis Mercantile and ISS were the kings of 'just guns' back then) and in the movie Dogs of War, they simply didn't have enough real Uzis. (In the 1970s it was pretty hard to get real uzis, IMI just wasn't importing them in big numbers. The import explosion came during the 1980s. Movies like Uncommon Valor, Red Dawn, Rambo, Commando, Death Wish 2-5, etc. all fueled an "action movie flood" that also included all of the really crappy GOLAN&GLOBUS movies like the post apocalyptic movies or the Chuck Norris Movies. Special Effects Unlimited went away in the early 1980s. When I got into the biz, there were about 30 movie gun rental houses and hundreds of trained wranglers in California. Now there are about five rental houses, with less than a dozen independent wranglers. Thanks to the draconian gun control that California shoves down our throat every year. No wonder the movies are all filming in Canada or Australia. Their armorers don't have the BS that we have to deal with. :(
One of the interesting things is the 'work arounds' that movie armorers do. We don't have access to every gun or destructive device that comes down the pipe in the real world. A lot of times the stuff just isn't available when a movie is being made, so we have to 'fake it'. I remember having to 'fake' the Steyr TMP out of a Cobray M11 because the TMP had just come out and the film's director 'just had to have it', but it wasn't being imported into this country yet. I had a model builder mold a dummy and then cast it as two halves of a clamshel mold and screwed it on to the M11. hahahaha.
You and some of the other guys have done a great job on that page!!! I love the screen caps, if I knew how, I'd do it too :D I don't know if my 'overabundance of information' on the background of a movie is either 'wanted' or 'necessary'. Feel free to edit if my info seems irrelevant, but I always try to 'keep it short' :) I think I can photograph some of the actual guns from DOGS of War, unfortunately they've been refinished, some have been altered. I'll drop a note when I get to take the pics and post them. :)
Raw Deal page and other thoughts
You have to put up the Raw Deal page(!!) I was going to do it, but you have all the cool screencaps! :)
Note that from this angle, the barrel is obviously a thin metal tube (just enough to extend the MAC-10 barrel). It's not thick enough to be a 9mm or .45 acp barrel. Great screencap! :) BTW: those were 9mm MAC-10s not the .45 acp MAC-10s. The nines were easier to blank adapt, and the blanks had that nice hot white flash in front. They look identical, except for the markings on the receiver.
I'm holding off putting the AKM shot in the Red Dawn Page. I'm still looking for one with an original Laminated buttstock. I'm positive I can take a pic of an 'undamaged' one. Thanks again for your input. :) It's been a little slow in the biz, but next week I might be getting some gigs, and in July I'm traveling on some projects so I will be gone. best regards MoviePropMaster2008
Type 56
(Warning: this is from my own recollection and not official in any way) :)
Hmmm. it's a tough one. Since there is no 'official' designation it's hard to figure. And what always throws me is the 'official name' of the gun around the world and the 'official imported' name of the gun when it was sold here in the United States. Since this is a 'guns in the movies' site, I usually throw out the book on the 'official international nomenclature of the guns as used by foreign armies' and noting what the guns were called when movie weapons armorers were bringing them to the movie set. But the trend on the site, so far, has been to list the guns as what it's supposed to be representing (like calling obvious AR-15s, "M16s") in the real world. I just like to have some sort of footnote as to what weapons were actually used and what they were really called. :)
I've always regarded the 56 as a 47 offshoot. I don't think the other armorers have given it much thought, but I know that they'll always refer back to the AK47, not the AKM when anyone asks them what the Type 56 is based on.
I'll list my criterion and let me know what you think.
Now we all know that the Chinese barrels are slightly different in diameter to all the European barrels but for the most part, the Chinese Type 56 parts are clones of the 47 not the AKM.
1) The Chinese started their Type 56 copy with milled receivers. Around the 1960s the Soviets changed to stamped receivers in the 'modernized' AKM. The Chinese thought that was a good idea, and began production with stamped receivers, but everything else remained the same.
- (a) the front sight (.75" versus .5" width for the AKM)
- (b) the gas block (the angle AND the fact that it is not "notched" for gas release like the AKM)
- (c) the Gas tube (the AK47s have vent holes, the AKMs do not)
- (d) the Gas tubes are NOT interchangeable between the AKM and the AK47/Type 56 (I've tried, the angle of the back of the gas tube is different)
- (e) the pin placement in the receiver itself (the AK47 and the AKM have different pin placements)
- (f) the smooth versus ribbed dust cover
- (g) the wood furniture (the AK47 & Type 56 have smooth side crate wood - the AKM has bulged grip laminated - the buttstocks have a different comb and are different types of wood)
- (h) other than the wood for the gas tube and the pistol grip, the wood forearm and buttstock are NOT interchangeable between the AK47/56 and the AKM - you need to 'fit' the wood with a rasp and file.
- (i) in the underfolder stock versions the stocks of the Type 56 & AK47 are interchangeable, you need to modify them slightly to fit the AKM underfolder. Also the Underfolder 'arms' of the AK47/56 are smooth, the AKM underfolder arms are 'ribbed'.
- (j) the pistol grips for the 47/56 were wooden with a metal border near the receiver, the AKMs were all composite or plastic grips. This doesn't take into account the dealers or importers who may have swapped grips on their own, I'm just talking about the way they were exported off the factory floor.
- (k) I don't know if this is official or not, but I've personally tried to swap the bolts from AK47s/Type 56s and AKMs and the AKMs 'stick' when put into the 47/56 guns. The gun doesn't cycle (and it's probably not all that safe 'headspace' wise (hahaha), but it's a lot safer when all you're shooting is blanks.....). It could be the bolt carrier and piston assembly, but I've noticed that as well.
This is only based on my personal experience, but I'll bet that no one else on the board is as dopey as me and has tried to swap parts between an AKM and a Type 56 and wondered what went wrong ;) hahaha I DO know that we've fixed broken Chinese guns (from the 1980s) with original Soviet AK47 parts kits and the other cosmetic parts did fit (though we had to take into account the slight size difference between the Chinese barrels and all other AKs).
So in my thinking, the only difference between the Type 56 and the AK47 (other than the obvious Chinese 'style flourishes') is the stamped receiver. Since the AKM instituted a lot more other changes than just a stamped receiver I just consider the Chinese Type 56 series to be a stamped receiver version of the AK47, not the AKM. All the details other than the receiver are "AK47".
Also there is the confusion of how the imported guns were stamped. ALOT of the imported Chinese guns armorers bought in the 1980s were marked "AK47", not AKM. I have samples of Norinco AK type rifles in the 1980s, imported by B-West that are marked either: Type 56, Type 56S, Type 56 Sporter, Sporter 56, AK-47, AKS-47, AKS Sporter, AKS-47 Sporter. The vast majority of guns were indeed stamped AK-47 or AKS-47. (I can take a pic of the marks on the receivers to send to you). So many of the imported Chinese guns were marked AK-47/AKS-47 (as a marketing ploy by the manufacturer since they doubted that most of the American buying public would have any idea what a Type 56 was).
footnote: Only after the import ban of 1989 did we see names like the MAK-90, the NHM-90/91, et. al, those were the first 'thumbhole monstrosities' to enter the country from China.
Since those of us who were buying the guns never referred to them as an offshoot of the AKM, but of the AK47, thats how I've always viewed them. But there is no hard and solid rule. The Chinese guns are their own 'platypus' hybrid.
That's just my 'reasoning' on it, but again, since the Chinese guns are 'hybrids' it doesn't really matter. As long as the rifle types are listed 'SOMEWHERE' on the site, with notations as to what movies they were used in. As has been noted by others, the Chinese guns are by and far the most COMMON AK type to be seen in TV and movies bar none. They were the most plentiful and cheap when they first came out. I know of a prop house in L.A. that was trying to sell of over 400 of them, because they were going out of business (owner died, sons didn't want to continue the family biz).
Again, sorry for my long post. Again, I sometimes wonder, 'when is too much information too much?" I don't want to confuse the users of the site, but the reality is really complex. :) Now don't get me started on the massive 'periodic chart' known as the 'Smith & Wesson Handgun naming chart'.... yeow!!!!
I sure hope it was in some way helpful and informative. :)
re: Type 56
Yes, no offense please! :) hahahaha I figured you already knew all the details, but I had to list them just to make sure that I remembered all of the points which brought me to my original conclusion. :) I also remembered the problems of trying to swap the pieces in the past and the total headaches they caused! Hahahaha.
RE: the new page for just Chinese guns - FANTASTIC idea! I didn't think of that myself and would have pretty much yielded to whatever categorization that you thought best, but that's a great solution. Are there any SysOps or other super contributors we need to check with? so that they don't start undoing the page?
On another note: I will try to take a pic of an unadorned Type 84 by late Thursday night. Is there any other weapon that is not properly represented on this site that I could try to track down and photograph?
Again, always a PLEASURE to discuss stuff with you. And I'll yield to what you think is best. :) best regards MoviePropMaster2008
New Images
Sorry about the delay in the Type 84 pics, but I can't seem to locate the .223 steel magazines. It doesn't look right without it. I will continue to hunt for the correct magazines and get the pic. I just went to the vault and photographed a BUNCH of new stuff. I am also using the pics for marketing purposes, i.e. so that I can email art directors and producers/directors my own images so that they know what the gun looks like, but I am trying to get IMFDB a bunch of ORIGINAL pics found no where else. :) No airsoft guns here. :) All real deal. More to come.
Updates
cc'd to: MT2008, Orca1 9904, Charon68 and others... :) I've been trying to get higher rez original pics to IMFDB for a little bit now. One of the major beefs I have with site like Security arms.org or Guns of the world.ru is that there are some really crappy pics, and lots of those pics are weird hybrid variations that are not good representations of the mainstream version of the firearm. Though I've had some nice comments from a few folks, I need to verify that it's kosher to try to eliminate the bad resolution 'stolen from the net' pics and replace them with original photographs. (granted permission by me the copyright holder) Don't know if I am stepping on anyone's toes or if anyone would be offended that I replaced their image (which was 'borrowed' from the net originally) with another image. If anyone thinks I should NOT be replacing pics on existing pages with new gun images, please let me know. Do the majority of IMFDB users even care? I'm fully expecting other sites to start stealing images from IMFDB when the level of pics goes up. :) hahahaha.
Zastava
I just did it because the Ak page was just getting too huge, and so many Chinese Aks were being used in films to "portray" Russian AKs that it made sense to put the Chinese guns in there. The QBZ-97 is just bullpup versions of AKs but it gets its own page. The Yugo AKs are really different from the other AKs, not as much as the Czech VZ58 which is an entirely different firearm. I know folks want to keep items to one page with a lot of variants, but I thought the entire series of Yugoslavian guns (all the way from the M70 to the M92 and their RPK variants) deserved their own page. You never see the Yugoslavian guns 'masquerading' as Russian or Chinese guns. They are always seen as weapons from the Balkans or Bosnian conflict. Of course the powers that be can always slam me down ;) But I figured it was worth a shot. :)
Let me know what you think. :)
BTW: on another note, I was going to suggest to the senior staff that pages like the KVAR's bullpup kit for the AK (as seen on the gun page Century Arms AK-47 bullpup doesn't merit a different page since it is just a commercial after market stock kit that goes on any AK and itself is not a weapon itself. The same goes for the Muzzelite MZ14 Bullpup ... there is no such thing as a Muzzelite MZ14. It is a plastic aftermarket bullpup stock kit that can go on either a Mini14, a 10-22 or a Marlin Camp 9 carbine. It has only ever been seen in movies with a Mini-14 inside. It does not merit a separate page since it is not a real gun, but a stock kit for an existing gun (i.e. the Mini-14). Curious to know what you think of that as well. :) Always good to hear your input.
Re: Lord of War
I believe the 400px size is just fine for screenshots, as it's usually big enough to give a good view of what's being shown in the image, and you can always click on the image to view it larger if you want. You don't see full-size images posted in articles on Wikipedia, after all. Orca1 9904 19:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)Orca1_9904